兩年前的秋季，在香港典亞藝博羅漢堂展位第一次見到羅漢。
修長清瘦的個子，深邃的藍色眼睛，立體如雕塑的面龐，加上歲月帶來的皮殼和包漿，中文名“羅漢”用在這位法國人身上，竟然莫名地契合，頗有些“瘦漏皺透”的風骨。
Laurent Colson，法國人
中文名羅漢，羅漢堂主人
羅漢收藏的太湖石
羅漢收藏的漆木傢俱
及至後來在羅漢堂見到了他的收藏：他偏愛華美高貴的中國漆傢俱，髹漆屏風和大櫃，是主項；他亦喜愛自然隨形的根結傢俱，根結椅和根結幾，在他的空間中被用得如影如神；太湖石和中國園林也是他不能割捨的中國情懷，早些年他曾專門花費幾年時間常往江南，拍攝記錄他理解的中國園林，並為此出版了一本書：《中國園林的藝術》法文版。
羅漢原名Laurent Colson，在巴黎長大，是一位工程師。三十年前，接觸到中國文化之後便深深為之沉迷，取中文名羅漢，于巴黎設羅漢堂，搜羅優秀漆傢俱或賞石等雅玩，與西方同好分享。
羅漢收藏的剔紅漢宮春曉方角櫃
今年5月26日，羅漢籌備已久的羅漢堂香港分館正式開幕，原本從中國文化出發的羅漢堂，將中國情懷帶去巴黎之後，混和著巴黎的詩意和浪漫，又落地在中國，以更近的距離分享羅漢的收藏觀。
以下，恰值羅漢堂香港店開幕之際，我對羅漢先生做了一次訪問，從這些吉光片羽之中，可窺這位法國“中國人”對理解中國藝術的獨特視角。
對話羅漢
退藏：很多人會感到好奇，作為一個法國人，您為何會如此醉心於中國藝術？園林，賞石，以及傢俱，從您的角度來說，欣賞的切入點有哪些？
Many people wonder, why, as a French, you are so intoxicated in Chinese art to such an extent.
Gardens, rocks ,and furniture. From your perspective, where are the ways that lead one into such appreciation?
羅漢：開個玩笑，有些人甚至告訴我，也許我的前世是中國人呢。我真記不得了。但也許來世我可能會做中國人。
As a form of joke, some people even told me I might have been a Chinese in a previous life. I really do not remember!! But I might certainly be one in the next life!
摘自羅漢專著《中國園林的藝術》
部分原因必定來自基因。基因對一個人對某種而非另一種的藝術類型及審美的敏感力的形成有很大關係。文化背景也是一個答案。
法國人對中國奢侈品和藝術的迷戀超過三百年了，我們家裡有不少中國幾百年前製作的器物，而且，中國藝術極大地影響了法國裝飾藝術。中國人和法國人看待生活的方式有很多相通之處，他們都對充滿美的生活懷有巨大熱忱。兩者的文化主要都是為了讚美生活。其他文化可能更關注死亡，比如，會去操心自己如何體面地死亡！把工具、武器和甲胄做成偉大的藝術品。我認為，法國人和中國人，只看重今世，對來生不抱太多期望！
Part of the explanation must lay in the genes. They are responsible for a great deal in the kind of sensitivity which leads to a form of art and aesthetics rather than to another one. The cultural background is another part of the answer. France has been fascinated with Chinese luxury items and Arts for other 300 years. Many objects are to be found in our homes made in China hundreds of years ago. Moreover, Chinese Art has influenced greatly the French decorative arts. Chinese and French actually have a lot in common in their way to look at life. They both have a passion for a life surrounded by beauty. Their culture is mainly dedicated to celebrating life. Other cultures might be more concern with death, to manage an honorable death, for example! Developing tools, weapons and armors as magnificent works of art! French and Chinese, I believe just look at the present here, do not expect too much from the unknown afterlife!
羅漢設計的海報
退藏：巴黎的浪漫和執著，對您賞玩中國藝術有影響嗎？
Does the romance and persistence that is characteristic of Paris exert an influence on you in your appreciation of Chinese art?
羅漢：當然啦！離開了我的背景和我生活環境這枚棱鏡，我無法審視中國文化。還有，所謂“浪漫的法國情調”在中國文化裡也根深蒂固。只要看看重要的小說像《金瓶梅》、《紅樓夢》就知道了！它跟法國小說及17/18世紀的藝術如此息息相關！
Of course!!!! I cannot do otherwise than to look at Chinese culture through the prism of my background and my living environment. And more other the so called « romantic French style » is also deeply present in the Chinese culture. Just think of the important novels such as Jing ping Mei or Hong Lou Meng!!! This is so close to the French novels and art of the 17th and 18th century!
退藏：您和中國打交道已經接近三十年了，某種程度上講，您已經是半個中國人，甚至比中國人還要中國。在您的生命旅途中，中國這兩個字對您意味著什麼？
You have been involved with China for three decades and in a sense you are half Chinese, even more Chinese than a Chinese. What does China mean to you in your life.
羅漢：我大部分生活都圍繞著中國器物展開，還有旅行……很多很多，幾乎一切，真的太多了！
Most of my life is organized around Chinese objects, travels,…. so a lot, almost everything, too much actually!
香港羅漢堂
退藏：到今天，您每年在中國呆的時間多長？在中國期間，都喜歡去哪裡逛逛？喜歡的中國菜是什麼？
To date, how long do you stay in China every year? Where do you like to visit during your stay? What is your favorite Chinese food?
羅漢：香港和內地每年大約超過三個月。東坡肘、西芹百合、松鼠鱖魚，北京烤鴨、鍋貼。我非常喜歡中國菜，這也是我常常回來的原因。
HK and China should represent more than 3 months a year.
Dongpozhou, XiqinBeihe, Songsuguiyu, Beijing duck, Tiezi. I like Chinese cuisine a lot, it is certainly part of the reason why I keep coming back.
羅漢眼裡的中國園林
退藏：在接觸中國近三十年裡，您直觀感受到的中國藝術氛圍變化有哪些？
In the last 30 years while you are in touch with China, what are the changes in art environment in this country that directly impressed you?
羅漢：當然是中國市場和當代藝術的興起。看到中國買家如此興高采烈地跳進這黑洞，真是美妙之極！
Of course the raise of the Chinese Market and the contemporary art scene. How Chinese customers jump in this black hole with such a pleasure is fascinating!
上世紀九十年代初期，中國藝術沒有市場，外國買家是最終的定價者。今天，很少人能給到中國買家的出價了，他們對自己的藝術比外國人更加自信。三十年前，不能出境的藝術門類都不值錢。悲劇的是很多情形下，市場上低價位或幾乎無價位的東西註定會消失或被遺忘，即使它具有最高的藝術價值、歷史價值和文獻價值。今天，兩個規模，即市場規模和藝術規模的趨勢是相互調整的，儘管市場總是服從於風尚。
In the early 90’s, there was no market in China, for Art. The prices were decided ultimately by the foreign customers. Today very few can follow the prices paid by Chinese customers, much more comfortable with their own art than foreigners. 30 years ago, a field of art with no accessibility from outside of China had no value. And like sadly in many cases around the world a piece which has a low value or close to none on the market,is doomed to disappear and be forgotten, even though its artistic, historical or documentary value is of the highest level. Both scales,the market scale and the art scale tends to adjust one another today, even though the market is always subject to fashion.
我第一次來北京時，當代藝術集中在海澱邊上的幾個小村落裡。去那裡時，我們覺得在非法進入他人領地，有點兒像歹徒。現在呢？無處不在！時裝、廣告……
When I first came to China, the contemporary art was in some small concentrated village like areas on Haidian side. When we were going there, we thought to be trespassing, in some ways to be outlaws. Now it is everywhere! Cloth fashion, advertising…
香港羅漢堂內景
退藏：今年選擇在香港開設羅漢堂，出於哪些考慮？對香港羅漢堂的定位和期待有哪些？會在大陸開設新址嗎？
What makes you decide to open Luohan showroom in HONG KONG this year? What is the position you set for the showroom and what is your expectation? Will you launch another showroom in Mainland?
羅漢：我的大多數買家是中國人。香港具有這行業一切的便利，工作也舒適。我沒有在內地開設展廳的計畫。
Most of my customers are Chinese people. Hong Kong offers all the facilities and comfort to work in this field. I have no plan to open a showroom in mainland.
香港羅漢堂
退藏：除了您，亦有一批西方人士活躍在對中國藝術的研究和推廣當中。包括柯惕思先生、剛剛出版中文版《士林典藏》的馬科斯先生等等。您如何看待近代西方人士對中國藝術所做的推動和貢獻？
Besides you, there are also a few other Westerners active in the research and promotion of Chinese art, including Curtis, and Marcus who has just published Custodians of the Scholar’s Way. How do you view the promotion and contribution to Chinese art by westerners in modern times?
羅漢：我認為，外國人分享他們對異國他鄉文化的熱情極為重要。法國文化最大的推廣者並非法國人，而是英國人、美國人或俄國人……他們從遠處看，能幫助他們以整體觀來審視一種文化。如果離得太近或涉足太深，你無法看到全景。
而且，當你將這一異國文化與自身文化相比較，差異和相似會令人追究與探尋，也許幫助你指出一些特殊之處以及那種文化的強處。它會引導你的興趣。
To my understanding, this is very important that foreigners share their passion for an alien culture. The best promoters for the French culture are not the French. They are English, American or Russian…. Their point of view from a far helps them to consider this culture as a whole. When you are too close, or too much in it, you cannot see it entirely. Moreover, when you compare this alien culture with yours, the differences or the similarities question your mind and helps you maybe to point out some peculiarities and strengths of this other culture. It guides your interest.
最終，我們作為人類，站在最高的藝術層次，為了真誠而讓文化泯滅。原本從屬於或這或那的文化煙消雲散。對藝術真正欣賞的人會被一件真誠的藝術品打動，無論它屬於哪種文化。
Ultimately,as we are all humans, at the highest level of art, the culture disappears to the profit of sincerity. Being from a culture or another becomes an anecdote. Any true sincere appreciator can be touched by any sincere work of art, whatever the culture.
羅漢擅長將不同材質的器物在同一空間中呼應混搭
退藏：在您熱愛的中國漆傢俱文化裡，最令您著迷的地方是什麼？對於漆傢俱的藝術價值，您認為當下走到了哪一步？
In the Chinese lacquer furniture that you are so much into, what keeps you fascinated? Where are we at the present moment in the realization of the artistic value of lacquer furniture?
羅漢：中國收藏者已經開始會欣賞這些藝術品的藝術、歷史和社會價值了。但尚需做出努力。
Chinese collectors have started to appreciate the artistic, historical and social value of those pieces. But progress is still to be made.
中國大漆傢俱已有五千年歷史了
在中國傢俱領域，大漆傢俱是最古老的一個門類。中國人做大漆傢俱已經五千年了，還在不斷地探索並完善這門藝術。它經歷了中國歷史上所有不同風尚的朝代。它是一門活的藝術。每次，一個新皇帝的品味和一個極有創新力的藝術家的想法都會給它注入新的活力。皇家定制的大多數傢俱包括成套的都是獨一無二的。它們是為某個廳堂或宮殿量身打造的。
所以，一個“設計師”會拿出一張圖紙，也許跟一位名畫家一起來決定裝飾圖案，將用比較廉價的材料做的打樣，進行線條和比例的修正，定下之後會花數月甚至數年去完成實際的作品。
In the field of Chinese furniture, lacquer might well be one of the oldest craft. Chinese people have been making lacquer furniture for other 5000 years perfecting and adapting this Art, through all the many different fashions of Chinese history. It has been a living Art, each time rejuvenated by the taste of a new Emperor or the proposal of a revolutionary Artist. Most of the pieces or set of pieces commissioned by the Imperial family are unique piece. They were designed to be placed in a specific hall or palace. As such a “designer” would propose a drawing, working maybe with a prominent painter for the ornamentation, checking the lines and proportion with a prototype of cheap material before going for many months and sometime years to complete the actual piece.
作為法國人，我對漆器傢俱深感自在，陶醉於不同色彩之美，多種鑲嵌之材，還有那畫片之美。在那些極品中，我感受到器物本身煥發出的生命力。它們的造型具有中國傢俱線條所有的品質：由內而外、充滿彈性、開門見山……真如那些我們愛上硬木傢俱原由一樣的品質。As a French, I feel at ease with lacquer furniture, the beauty of the different colors, the many material to be inlaid, the quality of the drawings. In the best pieces,I feel the vibration of life itself.The shapes of the pieces have all the qualities of the Chinese furniture lines: organic, elastic, direct… just those we have learned to love with the hardwood furniture.
漆傢俱豐富精緻的細節
目前來說，我最喜歡的是康熙朝。最打動我的，是那時期的創造力。我認為那個朝代是唐朝到今天傢俱製作創造力最強盛的。它導致了傢俱的重大轉變，從式樣到功能。如果創造力是評判藝術的主要標準，康熙朝或許稱得上是中國傢俱藝術的巔峰時代。
The Kangxi period is my favorite at present. Creativity is what is the most striking for me at that time. I consider this period as the highest period for creativity in furniture from the Tang until now. This led to a major transformation of the furniture, its look and its usage.If creativity is the main criterion to judge Art, Kangxi period might be the peak period for the furniture Art in China.
這時期，一個趨勢是用全部明代和傳統的符號，加以前所未有的改造和重組。另一個趨勢是融入外國影響，主要是西方和日本的。這是一種世界範圍的跨文化的全方位的相互學習和借鑒，從風格到式樣。其中一些新的中國風格沒有留存下來，現已消亡。有些傢俱則借用了古典中國傢俱的語彙，將其融入到社會各階層。他們用其他材料製成，甚至被簡化以滿足較為本地的口味或財力有限的客人。
During this period, one trend would use all the Ming dynasty and traditional codes and idioms, reshuffle them and reorganize them like never before. Another trend incorporates foreign influences, mainly Western and Japanese. It is part of the many reciprocities and exchanges of style and pattern in all directions across the cultures of the world.Some of those new Chinese styles were not kept and disappeared. Others incorporated the corpus of classical Chinese furniture and infused the different strata of the society. They were made in other materials and even simplified to satisfy more vernacular tastes or humble purses.
皇室大漆傢俱有待進一步研究
皇室大漆傢俱對傢俱藝術乃至中國藝術本身的深刻影響尚未被真正地充分理解，需進一步研究。還有，它作為時代文獻的價值也未真正被人認識，也需深入探究。我希望，年輕一代人中已經對此產生興趣。我希望，更多的人會跟上來。
The deep influence of Imperial lacquer furniture on the art of furniture and the Art itself in China, together as its value as document of their times is not yet really well understood and would need more studies. Hopefully some people in the young generation have put their interest in it and I wish more will follow.
採訪：程香
攝影：羅漢
翻譯：Max雪浪
統籌：Leeann梁歆然
